Resurrection Rule s Self as Other NO RAPING IMPREGNATING SOIL OR ANY INJURE HURTING NO MURDERING NOR IMPREGNATING A SLOT TO CALL US EITHER ANO READY MEALING NOR SCALPING 1000 and RETURN OF EMBRYO SOULARD MATRIX A GO
Dealing with Resurrection Magic and Rulers
TL;DR: How to keep killed monarchs dead when there is resurrection magic?
I have a question about dealing with resurrection magic and monarchs/rulers dying from causes other than old age. What keeps rulers from being resurrected whenever they die from accidents, disease, assassinations, etc.? And I mean more brought back to life, not to undeath. Are rulers of kingdoms assumed to live until old age since they can and probably would be brought back from death?
Ignoring Revivify due to needing to be casted within a minute of death, there are three (four) ways to resurrect a person. There is Raise Dead, Resurrection, and True Resurrection. There is Reincarnate also, but guessing that rulers wouldn't want to come back as a different race. Probably make it a bit weird to be ruled by a Half-Orc when the ruler use to be human.
Raise Dead- 5th level spell, costing a 500gp diamond. Dead creature within 10 days of death. "If the creature's soul is both willing and at liberty to rejoin the body, the creature returns to life with 1 hp". Neutralizes any poisons and cures non-magical diseases. The major downfalls are not removing magical diseases, curses, etc and not replacing body parts (even ones needed for life). So magical cause of death or missing parts needed for life/cut off head are possible ways of assassination.
Resurrection- 7th level spell, costing a 1000gp diamond. Dead creature within a century of death. "If its soul is free and willing, the target returns to life with all its hit points". Same as Raise Dead, but restores any missing body parts. Sounds like an option would be burning the body/destroying it beyond repair or magical cause of death.
True Resurrection- 9th level spell, costs diamonds at least 25000 gp. Dead creature within 200 years of death. "If the creature's soul is free and willing, the creature is restored to life with all its hit points." Closes all wounds, neutralizes any poison, cures all diseases, and lifts any curses. Replaces missing organs and limbs. Restores undead to non-undead. Provides a new body if the original no longer exists. Almost seems no way to prevent a person from being brought back by this spell.
So I would assume time from death would not be longer than 10 days before they would be attempted to be resurrected, so any of the spells would work. Poisoned or stabbed to death monarchs could be brought back by any of the spells. Heads chopped off/organs pulled out would be covered by Resurrection or True Resurrection. And any magical cause of death or entirely missing body seems like it could be cured by True Resurrection. So it seems like any type of death could be fixed by those three spells.
While the 25000 gp worth of diamonds might be a bit much for players, rulers should be able to spend that much of cash to be sure that they don't die unnaturally. Just to put the amount in context, here's some costs to build stuff: Abbey (50,000), Keep/Small Castle (50,000), Noble estate with manor (25,000), Palace or Large Castle (500,000), Temple (50,000). Sure it would be a good bit of diamonds, but unless diamonds are in short supply, it should be possible to support the cost.
Next would be having casters that can cast those various levels spells (5th, 7th, 9th). In the PHB, it says that the two caster classes that get True Resurrection are Cleric and Druid at level 17; two caster classes that get Resurrection are Bard and Cleric at level 13; three caster classes that get Raise Dead are Bard, Cleric and Paladin at level 9, 9 and 17. Would it be weird to assume that there is at least a handful of 17th level clerics around the world that have True Resurrection? I'd think that royals would make deals with said clerics to cast the spells on them to raise them from their early graves. And even if that wasn't possible, wouldn't it be possible to make lesser deals for less major causes of death?
The final and only major issue that I personally find getting in the way between royals and being resurrected before natural death is the whole "soul is free and willing" part of the spells. If they arranged to be resurrected, I'm sure their souls would be "willing". Sure there might be a handful of nobles/royals that think if it's my time, it's my time, but surely there are ones that believe their work isn't done yet for one reason or another. That leaves the soul being free. What could keep souls from being free, other than perhaps deities or fiends? I'm guessing selling your soul to the devil would prevent you in this case, but do deities usually reach out for monarchs to keep them from being resurrected? Sure the Raven Queen strives to monitor death, but would she prevent resurrections? If she did, would it be for any/all? If so, why would there be spells to allow the resurrection. Unless she would specifically watch major nobles and catch their souls as they die.
So unless the assassin/the planners are organizing with a fiend/deity to keep their soul's bound (which is now a cool idea to implement, but unlikely to occur often), it seems there is no way they can keep the monarch from being brought back specifically by the assassin. The closest thing they have to binding souls themselves would probably be Imprisonment, but that would be more effective to just kidnap/hide the monarch than just killing them with it. Though I suppose that is one way to have rulers disappearing before its their time. Whether they are kidnapped and kept alive till they die of old age or simply trapped somewhere where they can not be found, alive eternal, both would have the same result. So I might have answered my own question on how to make sure there is some kind of possible conspiracy behind deposing a rightful and beloved monarch. Though I guess it could just be they were killed and overthrown letting none, but those with True Resurrection could raise them if they wished. It's just that I want there to be a logical reason why rich people can die before their time and not just be resurrected if they wanted it. And I'm not sure how I'm feeling about changing the rules without some solid background/game mechanic reason behind it, because that'd very likely disallow the players to use those spells unless there was an exception for them for some reason. But now I have a handful of ideas to implement with deposing of monarchs that doesn't strictly deal with covert assassinations.
Sorry for the rant on this post, but even if I've over filled this post, I hope it helps spark others with ideas or brought the question to the forefront of other DM's minds.
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level 1
In my world, resurrection magic is all considered necromantic, which, in fairness, it technically is.
This has led to several dominant orders banning its practice entirely, on pain of excommunication and sometimes execution for heresy.
That is enough for most rulers. Some few try anyway.
That's when a Reaper gets involved.
The God(dess) of Death doesn't care for those who defy their will, so he/she has several agents whose sole duty is to reclaim those who defy the natural order.
When the party wants to use resurrection magic, the first point stands, but is easy enough to get around: don't get caught.
The second is a bit tougher, but Reapers are sometimes willing to strike deals, and Death gives them the necessary leeway to serve their primary function. 'You help me reap a particularly intransigent soul, I ignore this little transgression' is a popular one, but the strength of the Res necessary will typically boost the difficulty of the challenge.
In my mind, Death should never be cheap simply because magic exists. That's boring. It should cost more than gold. It should require sacrifice and challenge, as defying the natural order should.
But that's just in my world.
level 1
In the kingdom of Cormyr in the forgotten realms, it is forbidden to resurrect rulers on the pain of death. Can't remember exactly where I read it (I believe it was in a FR novel or something), but the exact reason of this kingdom's law was to prevent civil wars between the resurrected ruler and the current ruler. I had found the rule full of sense in a world where resurrection magic is indeed available to the wealthy.
level 2
But does that apply to rulers that are assassinated and could be resurrected before a new ruler is crowned? I mean that makes amazing sense, but for this it’s really more about unnaturally dead rulers vs resurrecting ancient rulers/reviving past ones that lived their entire life already.
level 3
Well the instance where I read about it, the king got killed in combat in an ambush, and the heroes resurrected him and were still in the wrong for doing so according to the law, since the moment the king died, the crown passed on to his heir. The law seemed really harsh about it, but at that point it's up to you to decide how harsh the law is, and why.
level 2
Can't remember exactly where I read it (I believe it was in a FR novel or something)
It's probably been mentioned in a lot of different places, but this is explored in some detail in one of the Brimstone Angels novels. I believe it's Fire in the Blood.
level 1
I recall seeing a post similar to this on /r/Pathfinder_RPG recently. In my games I use a homebrewed set of resurrection rules (made for Pathfinder) that are loosely based on the concept that Mercer presented for his campaign. Because it made a personal connection necessary for the resurrection to occur it ended up making it more difficult for politicians and monarchs to be brought back from the dead. Though it has never come up in play, I do take is a step further and state that the NPC's that the players are not 'emotionally invested' in are not eligible to be resurrected.
On the flip side you could easily have those NPC rulers resurrected time and again. If they were a particularly ruthless ruler it could become an entertaining recurring villain, though you would not want to do this to often. Fighting a villain that, in essence, can't be defeated gets stale and the players will become disinterested in that plotline after a few goes.
level 2
I’m thinking of allowing the resurrection magic as it stands and just think of ideas to prevent it from occurring. Assassinations of high level casters to prevent them from reviving the rulers, trapping the ruler alive and trapped alive forever ie Imprisonment, hiding them until they die naturally, have the new ruler prevents the old from being resurrected, plans not being in place to resurrect the ruler, not having a caster that wants to resurrect the ruler since they’re opposed and they support the new ruler, but maybe a handful of monarchs have been resurrected after dying once or twice.
level 3
Maybe a bit heavy handed, but you could just say that the Gods do not allow the souls of those that have ruled to be brought back. Unless the players are immediately looking for a reason to prevent a resurrection. It that is the case then I would make it clear that the ruler is deeply religious as well and that there is a specific priest with the power needed to bring them back. That, in turn, makes a clear target for the players to focus on so as to prevent that resurrection.
level 4
Well I’m chatted back and forth with a buddy and an idea came up. So maybe a few rulers are actually able to be ended up resurrected, maybe once or twice. But I’m thinking the Raven Queen begins to notice and will instantly grab their souls after they die for a third time or possibly send minions to go attack those that keep surviving.
level 5
This is a good one. Any players in the group loyal to the Raven Queen already? It could make for an interesting plot if the players are sent on a mission for the goddess to eliminate the figures that continuously bring the ruler back to life.
level 6
I personally don’t have any players loyal to the Raven Queen in the playing group as I’m asking this as prep so I can flesh out the backstory of a new campaign/world. However, one of my current character is undead (vampire spawn), the party follows orders/missions from a vampire, and a Raven Queen Warlock will be prowling around their home base once play starts back up.
level 4
"Only one can rule over death, and the Raven Queen suffers no competition."
level 6
Honestly, that's probably a good thing. Not sure any of us really want to get acquainted with the goddess of death.
Edit: I tried to find a youtube video explaining the gods here, but I'm just not sure the name of it and I couldn't find. Sorry :(
level 7
I appreciate the attempt to find information! I have not used a published pantheon in years as I have been running a homebrewed campaign setting since about the late 90's. Tonight I will crack open the D&D books and read up on the Raven Queen. Might brew some ideas.
level 8
I’d suggest looking up the Unearthed Arcana for Wizard/Warlock, there’s the Raven Queen patron option in there and it says a bit about her in there and what’s expected if you serve her.
level 3
also consider the assassin using a scroll of Reincarnate. They come back as a goblin or some shit. True Polymorph. Fairy tales love the whole Frog is now a Prince thing.
level 1
When you encounter something like this in D&D it's usually a side effect of thinking half way through the problem. In D&D beings can be brought back from the dead, unlike our world. The instinct is to think that this prevents assassination, but that's coming at the problem from our world's perspective. The would-be assassin in a D&D setting wouldn't do that, they'd consider the problem within the context of their own world. Resurrection is a thing, so if your target is rich enough to afford it then you need to come at them with that knowledge and take proper steps to counter it. In our world an assassination plot would mainly involve reaching the target and carrying out the deed, but in D&D you'd need to also consider if they're wealthy enough to afford to be resurrected and take additional steps to make sure they're permanently dealt with.
There are certainly options for this, although the rules aren't very explicit about them to give the DM room to interpret them as appropriate. It ties into the "If the creature's soul is free and willing" part. The Imprisonment spell can be used to trap their soul, or the assassin could travel to the outer planes and track down the ruler's soul to destroy it utterly before a resurrection spell can be cast. The rules around undead transformations are very vague, it's also reasonable to say that powerful undead transformations corrupt the soul leaving it unsuitable for resurrection. You can easily create an "Assassin's Blade" magical item that either traps or destroys the target's soul when used to strike a killing blow. Even temporarily holding their soul may be enough with the right timing, as their followers are unlikely to repeatedly try to resurrect them after the first attempt fails.
This actually just came up in my own campaign. A king was assassinated along with his son, leaving no clear line of succession. The nobles fought for power but with no leader the kingdom looked like it would descend into chaos. The nobles decided to set aside their own power struggle and resurrect the king to save the kingdom, but the assassins had already planned for this. When the resurrection failed the nobility was unprepared to handle the situation, exactly as the assassins planned. This has let them carry out their political maneuverings knowing full well that resurrection wasn't possible while the other nobles assumed it was.
That extra layer of security comes with a cost, by being more reliant on the ability to resurrect a fallen leader a government will be even more unprepared to handle a situation where that safety net is removed. Play that up and you can tell interesting stories that wouldn't make sense in our world, which in my opinion is one of the coolest things D&D has to offer. Access to resurrection would prevent a monarch from dying to an accident or an assassin without extensive resources and healing magic would save them from disease and injury, so the sudden loss of a ruler would be far less common in a D&D setting. This also means that if it does happen the results would be far more extreme than they are in our own world, which is already not small. My suggestion is to lean into that, think about what would happen when suddenly there's a power vacuum in a kingdom that has literally never had to deal with a situation where there is no king or successor.
level 1
There are 2 reasons that rulers aren't constantly resurrected. 1) Medieval kingdoms did not have vast stores of money. Lesser nobles and merchants often had far more cash than the royal family. Sure they had plenty of cash coming in but they also had lots of cash being spent. 2) Someone else has to want to resurrect them. Even assuming the King is a well beloved ruler, their heir is still going to want to rule. That means the King stays dead.
level 2
That's a good point. Any cleric who tries to resurrect the dead king would be doing so in opposition to the current king. And that's a risky move, especially if resurrection spells aren't a sure thing (like if the world uses Mercer's resurrection ritual).
level 1
Just don't have 9th level magic available to NPCs.
And then just take the body. =P
level 2
In fairness, this is a great answer. Why would every ruler have access to a cleric with 9th level magic? Your average priest might be third level. A high priest? Maybe 9-12.
If you assume that every country has 9th level clerical magic, then you've created a big magic setting and you're dealing with the ramifications of that choice.
level 1
I also have issues with how easy it is to return someone to life. I think you downplay how easy it is to have access to True Resurrection. It isn't just spending 25000gp it also means finding enough diamonds worth that much. SO the ease of this is largely dependent on the setting.
When running my game I advised my players that only True Resurrection will always work, any other spell can fail. And for that reason in my setting, not many priests or clerics in my setting actually study those spells or have them available.
And there are methods of preventing a soul returning to the body.
level 1
If your assassination target has access to True Ressurection and the like, then the assassin also needs access to powerful artifacts and necromancy or you are right - raise dead just solves the problem entirely.
Consider giving the assassin a blade of soul imprisonment, or the ability to burn vast sections of the castle down. Good luck finding a piece of the king to cast the spell on after that. Or do a targetting assassination of the king, high priest, and court wizard all at once D=
level 1
This 'issue' will vary based on the campaign world involved. It's like Mike Mearls said yesterday on Twitter "..too many DMs attack issues from the wrong side of the screen." I don't think the issue is that the spells exist. I think the issue is how the campaign approaches them.
I have never had a problem with any of these spells as they are written because of the kind of campaign world I run (which is not to say mine is better+your fun is not wrong). Just to touch on a few points. In my games most NPCS do not have character classes or levels so there is never an abundance of clerics or druids running around. Of those that can be found, a level 17 cleric is not just a cleric, he would likely be the best cleric in the Empire or on that continent. Is he/she going to put matters of faith aside to be on permanent retainer to drop everything and travel hundreds or thousands of miles every time a King is killed? Is his/her chosen deity even held in high regard in that Kingdom and is this King one of the faithful? Can that high level druid even be found as they travel in wildshape throughout the vast forests and fields of the land? If so, as a neutral representative of Nature, why do they care if the King has passed? There can be many reasons why an NPC doesn't want to get involved (and in your example they make a tempting target for the assassin BEFORE he moves against the King).
The scarcity of diamonds you have already addressed but it is an issue and could bring things to a halt right there.
But more to my point is how you address 'free and willing'. In my game world whatever god the person worshiped is going to decide if that soul is free to leave their plane/realm. What does a god care about that mortal Kingdom? Generally they will be beyond such matters and have no reason to release a soul. For the faithless they are beyond Death's Gate, among all the other souls heaped into the Land of the Dead, and it's Lord/God is not letting anyone go.
And what about the soul being 'willing'? Certainly as a mortal they may have made plans and contingencies to cheat death but now that the King sits at the table of worthy champions in Valhol drinking the rich honey mead, plates of steaming fresh beasts slain that morning before him, singing songs of his glory, and attended by alluring winged servants with thick ropes of golden hair,... wait,.. there is a cleric on the line,... someone wants him to come back to a mortal world of sickness and bickering? Umm, tell my Heir the King is busy.
Those are my individual quirks. Your mileage will vary. The world you describe actually makes me think of the Vlad Taltos series of books set in Steven Brust's Draegaran world. Vlad is an assassin. Resurrection is common (especially among the Nobility). A great deal of those books is about Vlad planning out not just the assassination of powerful individuals but also how to make sure that the people he is hired to kill do not get to come back (and that he is not magically found out!). In short, an assassin skilled enough to take out a King or Queen is going to know their business well enough to make sure that the body cannot be located (even magically), that the high level cleric on retainer by the King has a convenient accident, that the royal jewels (diamonds) are stolen, that the local importer of diamonds comes to an 'understanding' about their availability during the next month, that a Morganti weapon is used ( An example from the Taltos books- according to legend, the Serioli created Morganti weapons to make war so terrible that no one would ever start one. They are magical blades that destroy the soul of any person they cut, killing victims utterly with the smallest scratch and making resurrection or reincarnation impossible), and that the Assassins loyal companions (or guild) are involved to help.
level 1
I like to make any problem caused by the introduction of magic into a plot point to enrich the world.
So run with it! Suppose you have a king/queen that has been resurrected multiple times. That's kind of interesting.. and mysterious.. and potentially very dangerous. If they are benevolent, maybe the long reign is having its toll on them.. how long can someone remain in power and still maintain this benevolence? Or perhaps they are despotic and now there's a very dark and imposing kingdom with a potential immortal tyrant. That's the stuff of legends!
level 1
If these were the weeds I was looking to wade through, I think I might approach by having a law/norm/divine commandment that rulers cannot be brought back from the dead (for reasons listed throughout answers here). Then, I'd create an order of paladins sworn to uphold the rule. Every year, they'd perform a ritual and certify that the monarch had not died and been returned. Their word is unimpeachable, and their justice implacable.
This also opens up some fun plot elements. A ruler gets resurrected and then plots against the paladins to destroy/disgrace the order before the next "check-up." Perhaps one or more of the paladins is corrupted and works to cover up a resurrection. Even better, perhaps the corrupted paladin perverts the ritual to make the ruler appear to have been resurrected to allow another to assume the throne.
level 1
Let's see. In my setting I can probably justify the lack of common resurrection magic, even for rulers.
Among the Hassai, sorcery is considered an inferior magic to their own soul manifesting abilities, which are incapable of resurrection, so it's not a common skill, even among powerful casters of their culture.
Among mankind, rulers are often elevated to godhood on their death, even if minor-godhood in service to the family patron, so you can see why they might be okay with not being resurrected. Then on the flip side, when the Dragonfall comes, all the gods (ie former rulers) are needed to protect the fleeing mass of humanity, so there's a reason for the mortals not to want the ruler back. Perhaps resurrection prevents one from joining the gods for good in my setting. I like that.
The Elves... well, Elves don't die of old age.
The Drow? Honestly, the Drow probably do practice resurrection on their leaders. They kind of had a real population problem, and may have sort of caused some problems trying to fix it, so keeping their leaders in place isn't all its cracked up to be, although it probably was necessary for a time.
Orcs? It's unnatural. Orcs are obsessed with nature and the natural order of things. Plus, they believe in a kind of reincarnation anyway, so yeah.
Leshzatt are a hive mind (I invented that name and I never know if I'm spelling it right without checking. I didn't check this time) so individuals are replaceable.
Sabito live in other peoples' societies, so they usually just straight up don't have access to resurrection.
level 1
Barghests and demiliches consume souls. Demons enslave them. Ghosts and wraiths are them. Spells like Imprisonment and Magic Jar trap them. Doppelgangers or Alter Self spells replace them so folks don't know they need to be ressurected.
Or you can tackle the problem head on and first assassinate all the royal clerics powerful enough to raise the dead, or work a deal with their church that any clerics who do will be excommunicated.
level 1
The problem as I see it is that whatever deal the monarch made is awfully hard to enforce. They obviously had to make large amounts of money available to someone in the hopes that they would resurrect them. Any heir or noble who thought they could do better with someone else might just sweeten the deal: "Keep those diamonds and here's a bit extra/new position/land/title for faking a failed resurrection or not trying."
Politics and not being alive to ensure the deals are honored seems like it would make resurrection a very tenuous arrangement.
Obviously depending on the available magic, court enemies and heirs may do their best to keep the body and the spell casters apart, destroy the body, or kill the spell caster. I would assume unwilling nobles would be hard to convince that a monarch had a new body, so even if he was true resurrected into a new body his claim to the throne would be contested as he obviously appears an imposter.
level 1
If there isn't already established magic which prevents resurrection establish it. Artifacts or spells which bind or destroy souls would be expected when assassinating a noble.
The other direction is what Girl Genius does. Anyone who is resurrected is removed from lines of succession. Once this is established everyone will toe the line since every family will have people in power because a resurrected family member was removed. Once one noble line breaks the rules everyone falls to civil war.
level 1
I think the major way to prevent someone from being rezzed, it to just deny access to the body. Bury the body in a different grave. Such as swapping it with a peasant's grave.
No body, no rez. "You touch a creature that has been dead..."
level 2
That would work for all but True Resurrection, I think I might have that there is maybe only one or two casters that have that, but otherwise it’s not truly used. That way options like that work.
level 3
Maybe my wizard should research creating synthetic diamonds and sell them to clerics and druids. I see a market for this. Pressure, Heat, and carbon is all that is needed to make a diamond. I just need to make some tungsten carbide metal, super power hydraulic tech, and what not. Then open up Zales shops with them would put any diamond mines out of business.
Yes, yes... I can see it now. A new diamond empire. High quality diamonds with out any imperfections.
level 4
But would your wizard know how diamonds are formed? Wizards tend to be more magically intuitive, not overly geologically knowledgeable.
level 5
3.5e had a geology skill and it's not to far off to imagine that a wizard couldn't understand how the world works. That is kind of what they study, how the world works with magic. It's not a far leap to think that they would eventually apply that to other fields.
I would actually break a game where my friends are trying to have fun in. That would a dick move. My last comment was meant as a thought experiment. Imagining being Einstein like wizard in D&D with business sense.
level 6
They might understand on a large scale how the world works, but I’m not sure if they have the science of understand of the creations of diamonds. I’m assuming they are at a medieval sense of science that is amplified by magic. I’m not sure if there really is magic that could identify on an atomic sense of diamonds. I guess it’s really all depends on what you assume there magic can detect/identify.
level 7
You can create a spell that can do nearly anything. If you take Wish for example. It can do amazing things. You also have spells that can transport you to different realities. What is stopping a Wizard from creating a spell that can identify the atomic makeup of an object, or allow her to see a single atom?
One could say that the study of magic is in essence the study of the how the world works. And in turn magic is just one more form of matter/energy manipulation.
Some spells do so much that you would think that low level spells should be more complex than they really are. Take Wall of Water. You create/transport water out of thin air/dimension, then you confine it, but still allow other objects to pass through it. If I where creating that spell for the first time I would just create a box that would not allow anything to pass through it and call it a day. Single best spell, imo, that can trap just about anything and kill anything that needs to breath.
Of course when applying physics to D&D some, if not all, of the fun and mystic gets sucked out of it. :/
level 4
However, if you produce diamonds at a sufficient volume to put diamond mines out of business (i.e. by undercutting them) you will lower the value of diamonds.
Also, might be worth considering that some operations (e.g. mines worked by slaves / convicts) have very low overheads. Like if you have 100 prisoners, you have to feed and guard them anyway, so why not send them down into the diamond mines as well? Even if diamonds have been devalued by some harebrained wizard, anything they pull out is pure profit.
But here's the interesting question: if you are magically creating diamond, what value components do you need to expend to create 1 gp of synthetic diamond? If it's less than 1 gp, you have the magical equivalent of perpetual motion, you are getting more out of the spell than you are putting into it!
Also, might be worth considering that some operations (e.g. mines worked by slaves / convicts) have very low overheads. Like if you have 100 prisoners, you have to feed and guard them anyway, so why not send them down into the diamond mines as well? Even if diamonds have been devalued by some harebrained wizard, anything they pull out is pure profit.
But here's the interesting question: if you are magically creating diamond, what value components do you need to expend to create 1 gp of synthetic diamond? If it's less than 1 gp, you have the magical equivalent of perpetual motion, you are getting more out of the spell than you are putting into it!
level 5
Coal/charcoal/carbon and energy all that is required.
One could make the resources needed being bones, lots of bones, or just massive amounts of coal/charcoal.
level 6
As that article mentions, it requires incredibly high pressure to effect the synthesis and wasn't successfully done until after the second world war. If you want to do it in a medieval setting, you're using magic. :P
level 6
Synthetic diamond
A synthetic diamond (also known as an artificial diamond, cultured diamond, or cultivated diamond) is diamond produced in an artificial process, as opposed to natural diamonds, which are created by geological processes. Synthetic diamond is also widely known as HPHT diamond or CVD diamond after the two common production methods (referring to the high-pressure high-temperature and chemical vapor deposition crystal formation methods, respectively). While the term synthetic is associated by consumers with imitation products, artificial diamonds are made of the same material (pure carbon, crystallized in isotropic 3D form). In the U.S., the Federal Trade Commission has indicated that the alternative terms laboratory-grown, laboratory-created, and [manufacturer-name]-created "would more clearly communicate the nature of the stone".
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level 1
I generally let the PCs figure out that the bad guys can use resurrection too on their own - usually right before it comes back to bit them in the ass.
After that, they tend to take precautions when trying to take down a powerful ruler.
level 2
Very true enough, the problem so far is that my current BBEG’s have been vampires XD
level 1
I think an indirect way you could use is to make the lands very divided with lots of rulers.
If a ruler has access to vast swathes of land to draw wealth from, even the cost of a True Resurrection could be absorbed by 'the state'. But if you have a less fantastical, more pragmatic and fractured political landscape your leaders won't be able to scrounge up that sort of wealth readily. Sure they may own properties and castles worth many times the worth of a True Res diamond, but that was acquired/built over generations of rule and inherited in many cases. They may not have access to the sort of liquid assets to afford those sorts of diamonds.
Or you could go with a diamond scarcity route. I know when it comes to players, there is a philosophy of saying 'yes' but there's no need to extend that courtesy to NPCs. Maybe a specific sect is bogarting all the gems from the main source in the world or something. OR maybe there just aren't many diamonds around at all. Having the cash to trade in for those things doesn't necessarily mean you can get 'em. Something like that.
It seems like having a material component with a gold cost is one of the few ways the game has of putting reins on more powerful spells, so I'd definitely play into that somehow.
level 1
I have my own homebrew rules on coming back to life, which you can view here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IftgFCG4MXik9lKm9rcPAHvPMDdSEkIofSk6d1X3p4I/edit?usp=sharing
Part of it is using the Mercer rules to make it slightly harder to come back to life, especially multiple times. But it also adds in a "reanimation time limit" for resurrection and true resurrection. I think it cuts out the frivolous use of bringing someone back to life without a damn good reason, because it doesn't matter in the end, while also providing the potential for really interesting character developments and arcs.
level 1
On willingness: The excruciating pain of death or the sublime glory of the afterlife may cause a soul to be unwilling to return to the Material Plane. Additionally, unless you have access to
Resurrection spells, missing body parts (especially a head) may be an instant deal-breaker.
level 2
Yeah, there are degrees of severity/damage that can be dealt to a body. The further the damage, the greater the spell has to be.
level 1
In my setting, everything better than revivify and worse than true resurrection is simply removed. Not possible. The exception being reincarnate, which is only changed to have a maximum 1 day time limit, just because it's such a cool idea.
Additionally, casters capable of such high level spells are exceptionally rare in my setting. They will basically never exist except for PCs and BBEGs.
level 3
Most settings assume that 9th level spells don't really exist for npcs. Imagine if a kingdom had access to meteor swarm during a war.
You still have to touch the creature for true ress too. A pile of fine powder disperses very quickly.
level 4
No for True Resurrection in D&D 5e all you have to do is speak their name if there isn’t a body. But if there isn’t so high level casters or spells known, how would the players learn their spells? Would they have to be the ones researching and finding the answer? Because I doubt that you’d easily find the high level spells unless they are able to raid so many ancient, powerful casters’s studies. I suppose there is some logic to that they are the ones to create said spells. Maybe above level six spells? Well for certain classes. Because I’d assume that Paladins, Clerics and Warlocks would get some semblance of their spells from the patron/deity. But high level Bards and Wizards needing to create their powerful spells. Not sure how to rule on Sorcerer or Druid off of the top of my head, I’d have to look into it.
level 1
The majority of it would be a diamond worth 25000 gp is going to be a one every dozen mines kind of thing, plus a level 17 cleric should be near demigod status and once in a generation type of figure. And getting the two together at the same time would be incrediblely difficult, plus that cleric must be willing to do the resurrection
level 2
I suppose that high of a cleric would be more rare than I thought of. But it is diamonds worth 25k, so not specifically too rare, but it could be adjusted to a single diamond.
level 4
For most of them except for True Resurrection. Probably because of rarity.
level 1
It is pretty setting dependant.
In my setting there aren't that many 9th level casters. Only a handfull for a smaller kingdom. In a big empire, there would be just as many 15th level casters. Once you are getting into the 17th level territory, you would already be a world class legend.
Like you pointed out Raise Dead has its limitations. So the near immortal nobles we are talking about would not exist in every country in my setting.
Still every noble above a certain rank in my setting has a scroll of Revivify on their person, so they can be returned to life easily when dying in the vicinity of an able caster.
In addition to all of that resurrection has a chance of failure. I use resurrection rules similar to Critical Role.
level 1
Well unless they go undeath bend, the rulers would only live until they die of old age. However, it could be that after resurrecting some many times they are striving for a way to become truly immortal. The once beloved king after being resurrected again and again has been losing pieces of his soul when he dies so he’s becoming more and more corrupted.
level 1
This is exactly why I asked this question! To get the ball rolling so not only am I inspired but any that read this post are.
level 1
There is one very simple reason. All resurrection magic (even from wizards) is controlled by the gods. According to most monarchies, the king/queen rules through the mandate of the gods. If they die, then by their own admission it is the will of the gods. So now if you can FIND a mage willing to go against the gods, that king/queen has still lost their Mandate of Heaven, and is likely to be rejected by the lower classes who believe in that mandate.
level 1
A few possible solutions come to mind though most have been suggested in the other comments:
Stealing a soul and imprisoning it is one option.
The dark touch of undeath might prevent someone from ever being restored to life.
Maybe assassins of this magnitude warrent an enchantment/spell that sunders the soul of an individual leaving it damaged enough to prevent such an act.
On the lighter side an enchantment/spell that permanently puts a spirit to rest preventing it from returning.
There's always the politics as well. The new ruler opposing such an act due to the political shift it would cause.
level 1
to start if you assume this is a world where there are good guys who have access to these magics, you assume there are baddies aware of it. Assassins would know they need to remove the hearts, when they make their mark, maybe a blade designed to shatter souls thats passed on from generation to generation. what does the ruler do when their cleric on retainer is killed the same day they are? or if a doppelganger takes the rulers place, and 10 days later dips. or raising the ruler as undead and throwing them in a portable hole. These strategies would have to be viable the more people are aware of magic and its rules.
When we get to the higher level spells, for the most basic setting of 5e its assumed levels 1-4 are local heroes, 5-10 facing dangers that threaten a city or kingdom, 11-16 facing dangers that threaten a continent, 17-20 saving the world. This implies there are a handful of each tier of hero in each of their domain. a handful of tier 1's in each small town, tier 2s in each city, tier 3's in each continent and tier 4's in the world. Are the handful of casters able to cast resurrection going to travel to resurrect a ruler when they are dealing with issues regarding the entire continent? likewise what steps are the handful of evil doers taking to undermine these attempts?
Or what about just multiple consecutive attempts? The ruler is brought back, glad he collected that 25,000 gp diamond, and made whatever deal with the 17th level caster, only to be killed the following night. The ruler just lost a diamond valuable enough to employ the kingdom, at what point do the people say thats enough? That could be an adventure right there, go out and bring back a diamond.
Point is theres always a series of escalations that dont involve dealing with fiends or the gods. if humanity wants someone dead, we tend to figure out a way to make it work. Good questions tho!
level 1
If the ruler is just assassinated, and has wizards with lv9 spells (which only the most powerful rulers would), and their subjects are loyal, then sure they might be resurrected. But if the subjects didn't like them, or the nobles or whatever orchestrated the assassination, or the killer somehow binds the soul of the ruler, then the ruler will stay dead. In my setting I also don't have the Raven Queen let souls back if they die of old age / similar.
level 1
This is an interesting question you bring up, and one of my biggest gripes with 5e. The access to really powerful spells, such as Raise Dead and Revivify, at low levels with a relatively low cost, causes problems for DM's who build worlds.
What players don't typically consider is that resurrection spells can hurt the players far more than help them. Every powerful lord, noble, and BBEG would have at least 1 cleric with them at all times to resurrect them in case something happened. A really powerful BBEG might have 3 or 4. Imagine the party has a long, dragged out fight with the BBEG and win. As they begin looting the room, an invisible cleric (scroll of major invisibility) casts Revivify on the BBEG, then dumps a major heal into him. BBEG teleports somewhere, chugs some healing pots, comes right back and wipes the party. Not fun.
My solution: I changed the spells. Resurrection/Raise Dead/Reincarnate/True Rez are not accessible to casters except only the most devout followers, and even then, they are typically only temporarily granted, usually with a contingency. Revivify exists, but has a very slim chance of working (I think I ruled 20%), costs 1000g in consumable components and renders the caster unable to cast any spells for the rest of the day. If the spell fails, the body is turned to ash. If it succeeds, the person resurrected is brought back with 5 levels of exhaustion.
The home rules I made allow my world to make more "sense" to me, as it effectively eliminates the idea of the "king who ruled forever".
level 2
To be fair, this particular problem isn't really new to 5e -- all previous editions have had more or less the same setup.
level 3
Actually, the problem is pretty new to 5e. 1e, 2e, 3e and 3.5e didn't even have Revivify. (I don't know about 4e)
In older editions, such as 1e, 2e, these types of spells were all extremely high level (at least a 5th level spell), and obtaining a high level in those systems was profoundly more difficult.
This meant that the number of NPCs that had access to that spell were substantially fewer in number. So it would be easy to say that even a large city had no priests that could raise the dead.
This meant that the number of NPCs that had access to that spell were substantially fewer in number. So it would be easy to say that even a large city had no priests that could raise the dead.
level 4
Revivify doesn't work on anyone who has died of old age, nor does Resurrection. Raise Dead appears to, though.
level 5
Still works for Raise Dead, True Resurrection and Reincarnate, which means the problem of "the king who ruled forever" is still a problem in 5e.
level 2
Honestly if your party is fighting someone strong enough to have 5th level minions who's sole job is to hang around invisible to cast Revivify then they really should be strong enough to deal with such an easily disrupted plan. The cleric needs to succeed at stealthily walking over to BBEG against a high level party's perception checks (invisible doesn't mean silent), cast a spell with VSM components without being noticed, then BBEG needs to successfully teleport out before the party can react. Assuming the BBEG wasn't inflicting blind and deaf status on the whole party there's basically no way that should ever succeed.
level 3
Strength has nothing to do with it. It's simply a matter of resources. A wealthy king can afford to hire a 5th level cleric without a problem. Hell, a king could hire two or three. 5th level is nothing. In 5e, that's like 7 days of fighting.
As far as perception checks are concerned, the party would be rummaging through chests and going through treasure while the cleric walked over and revivified the BBEG. Best case, the party might have a chance to see the BBEG teleport out.
And that's just assuming BBEG has a 5th level cleric working for him.
And that's just assuming BBEG has a 5th level cleric working for him.
level 4
I am sooooo glad I'm not a player in your group, because if you tried to pull that on me I'd walk out. I can handle a bit of railroading in story, but railroading gameplay and sacrificing verisimilitude just to masterstroke your players with your supposedly brilliant plan is just awfull.
At a bare minimum the cleric would need to pass 2 stealth checks (and clerics aren't exactly known for their stealth), one to quietly walk to the BBEG and one to cast the spell without alerting anyone. Searching the room doesn't involve a Citizen Kane level room destroying tantrum, at worst I could see giving the players who are actively searching disadvantage. Your cleric making stealth checks with maybe a +1 against 4 players with higher bonuses (some with disadvantage) who needs to succeed twice in a row... my money is on the party. Then assuming the cleric makes it and the BBEG wakes up he needs to beat the entire party on initiative to teleport out before one of them can strike him back down. The cleric also gets a roll to try to get a heal off, but even so the party outnumbers them and if any of them win they'll almost certainly take BBEG back out. Even if the cleric wins, a 3rd level cure wounds doesn't heal a ton so the players may still be able to stop BBEG from teleporting.
This could maybe work if the group was extremely low level, but if that's the case then a 5th level cleric would probably just turn the tide by joining the fight directly rather than carrying out this convoluted plan. This also assumes that said cleric is more than just a random hireling, even if he's successful the party is almost certainly going to kill him for reviving BBEG. This means the BBEG needs clerics willing to literally sacrifice their lives to save his, and suicidal devotion isn't that easy to come by.
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